Does Pronunciation Matter in Yoga? With Dr. Varun Khanna

Why does Sanskrit place so much importance on sound and pronunciation? I’m joined by Dr. Varun Khanna to explore the stories, philosophy, and history behind Sanskrit, and discuss what modern yoga teachers really need to know about the language.

Episode Highlights:

• Meaning of the word guru
• Sound and vibration in Sanskrit
• Origins of Devanagari script
• Sanskrit's role in Indian philosophy
• Sound, vibration, and the subtle body
• Pronunciation and mantra accuracy
• Sanskrit in modern yoga teaching
• Sanskrit as a tool for learning yoga
• Om as the ultimate vibration
• Sanskrit beyond power and hierarchy
• Practical takeaways for yoga teachers

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi everyone. We're back with another episode of the Let's Talk Yoga podcast. But before we dive into today's wonderful episode, I wanted to remind you that we have a few spots left for our prana and presence retreat in Italy. This is happening September 26th to October 3rd. And if believe it or not, a lot of you are signing up right now. And there's something so spontaneously joyful about jumping into this last minute. We still have some spots. So if you want to join us, then make sure you check out all the details in the podcast description. Now, today's episode is a language episode. I'm calling it Sound and Sanskrit. And I found a wonderful guest for you. Dr. Varun Khanna is the founder of Sanskrit for Mere Mortals. And he has been rigorously trained in several traditional Sanskrit learning environments in India, as well as many global institutions and the modern world. He has studied classical Sanskrit grammar under Dr. Pushpad Dikshirt in Chattiskar. And he's done an MPhil in Sanskrit and a PhD in Hinduism from the University of Cambridge. Dr. Khanna has been teaching Sanskrit and Sanskrit-related subjects for almost two decades at this point. And he's taught in some leading universities across America: University of Pennsylvania, University of Wisconsin Madison, Haverford College, and so on. Dr. Khanna utilizes a very unique teaching methodology that he has developed in his two decades of working with this subject matter. And he is on this mission to make Sanskrit and Sanskrit-related learning easier, more accessible for everyone. In this conversation, Dr. Khanai and I talk about a few different elements of sound and Sanskrit. We talk about the power of the Sanskrit language. And he shares stories about Sanskrit and where that sound and Sanskrit link actually come from. We talk about the vibrations of the sound and what that means. We talk about how important is pronunciation and where does that come from. We talk about the power dynamic that exists. And Dr. Varun Khanai is really good at telling stories, and he explains a lot of these in a story form, which I think you will find very fascinating. We talk about how much the modern yoga teacher should be obsessing about learning Sanskrit and what are the implications of that? Do you really need to learn Sanskrit to be a more authentic yoga teacher? And for me, that is one of the most crucial parts of this conversation that you should hear. Do you need to know Sanskrit to become a better yoga teacher, to become more qualified yoga teacher, and when that matters, and some actionable takeaways for you at the end of the episode if you are a non-Sanskrit speaker. So there is a lot that Dr. Varun Kanna packs into this episode. And I have linked everything in the show notes where you can find Dr. Kanna and some of his resources. And as always, if you find value, remember this is a free resource that we put out there every week for you. Please take a moment to share this with another yoga friend. Or if you could leave us a rating and a review, that always makes such a difference. And this podcast is available on all platforms. We're also streaming the video of this on our YouTube channel called Aham Yoga. That's it from me. Here's Dr. Varundanna about sound and Sanskrit from Sanskrit for Mere Mortals.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Hi everyone, I'm Arundati, and you've just tuned in to the Let's Talk Yoga Podcast, your ultimate online destination for learning about yoga. Whether you're a seasoned yoga teacher or a curious yoga student, there's something for you here. Let this podcast be your virtual yoga school. We offer insights, inspiration, and loads of dirty exploration of yoga along the way. But first, who am I? I'm an Indian immigrant yoga teacher living in America for the past decade. I have my own yoga school yet. I'm also a Bollywood choreographer, and I've nurtured a private yoga community at my studio, as well as a global yoga audience to my courses at this podcast. Through this podcast, I intend to create a space for you, the yoga student and yoga teacher, to learn about yoga. Think of this as your online yoga school free teacher training coming to you every week. So grab your cup of chai and let's jump in.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Hi Varun, welcome to the Let's Talk Yoga podcast.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Hi Harundati, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Thank you for being here. I am excited to get nerdy about Sanskrit. Before we start talking about Sanskrit and sound, I we're recording this on Guru Purnima. So can we talk a little bit about the word guru in Sanskrit?

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Sure. Yeah, I mean there are some like classic definitions, if you will. So one of them that I've heard is Gukaruandhakara Syat, Rukarastan Nevartakaha. And what it means is that gu, the word gu represents darkness, like guha, like a cave. And the the sound ru represents like a removal of that darkness. So the one that removes the darkness of your ignorance is called a guru, which of course distinguishes it from like adhyapaka or shikshaka, you know, other words for teacher, where, you know, in the in the more ancient world, the idea was that, you know, a teacher is somebody who helps you to recite, to memorize, to, you know, but it's not necessarily removal of ignorance of the like transcendental kind. So, you know, maybe your ignorance of chemistry is removed, but not necessarily your ignorance of self, if you will. And so a guru then has that special designation of performing that task, of being the one who takes you on to help you to rid yourself of your ignorance about who you are.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Beautiful. Thank you. So speaking of Sanskrit, it's often described where the sound is very important. And the pronunciation of that sound, it's meant to have a lot of weight to it. So, what does that sound in Sanskrit actually stand for? And how is that different? Because we don't find this in Western languages, but we place a lot of emphasis on the sound and the pronunciation. So, what is that all about?

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Okay, well, I hope you'll indulge me for a bit of a story. Everything in the Sanskrit world is kind of a story. And it starts with Once Upon a Time, as all good stories do. So, this is the story that Sanskrit tells about its own origin. And of course, this is the story that gives it that connection with just simply the utterance, the sound, and why sound is such an important aspect of Sanskrit as a language and not simply just creating a system of references to objects, which is what language typically is understood to be. So once upon a time, there were a group of people who needed nothing. You know, there's they're surrounded by the lush valleys of the Himalayas, they are protected on all sides, their food is taken care of. They're, you know, and in such a situation, when you are just sitting there and there's nothing left to be done for your survival, for your basic needs, then naturally the question arises well, okay, so why am I here? What am I doing now? You know, what is this for? And so they started to ask this question, and they wanted to know what is the nature of the universe? What is the nature of stuff? And so at first they began to investigate outwards. So they go and they see a leaf on the ground or something like that, and they're like, okay, well, this leaf is made up of, and they'll rip it into two halves, and they'll say, This is made of two halves of a leaf. And this half of a leaf is made up of two quarters of a leaf, and so on, and so on, until they get to the smallest particle they can find, and they're like, This particle is the essence of leaf. But you see, that mode of inquiry was very tedious and of course did not lead them to the kind of answers that they were seeking. But what they did observe is that the macro, the microcosm is a reflection of the macrocosm. That is to say, in all things, when you look at a smaller version, it's like fractals, you know, you look at a smaller version of the thing, and as you dig into that, it actually starts to resemble a bigger version of the thing. You know, we know about that from like, say, you look into an atomic, you know, scale image, and then you look at like the solar system and it starts to resemble each other. So this kind of thing they observed and they were like, well, what if we were to turn our attention inward and study ourselves? And if we come to know who we are, then maybe we will come to know the nature of the universe also, the, you know. And so they they basically started to meditate. They started to like consider and contemplate and cogitate about what is the nature of the universe. And in their seat of deep meditation, they came to the realization, I guess one can say, that this entire universe is made up of vibrations, that it's made up of these small oscillations, you know, and that vibration is sound. And so they took the sounds that they were perceiving and made those into the roots of what we now know as Sanskrit. That is the story of the birth of the language. And so what they what they said then was that when you speak Sanskrit, when you speak a word that is derived from these roots, these vibrations, then you are actually reproducing the experience of the object itself without necessarily having the object in front of you. So, I mean, for them to be able to speak in this way was to have this very, very deep power, if you will, to manifest stuff, to manifest the universe, or rather, to say to manifest the experience of the universe through sound. So, I mean, the the brief answer to your question is this that, like, okay, because of the way in which the story of Sanskrit is so intricately connected to vibrations, when we think of Sanskrit as a language, then within that consideration comes this story that says that, well, Sanskrit is actually a medium, a means of just producing and experiencing the universe of objects, but in like a you know, linguistic form or just in an uttered form. And there's so much Sanskrit literature that that reflects that belief, you know, the belief that when I say something, then then it has this magical capacity. There's another aspect to the story. If you don't mind, I'll oh I don't mind.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Please go for it.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

Okay, if you find it interesting, I'll keep going. But the other aspect of the story is that language by itself is a very powerful thing, Sanskrit or not. If you think about it, you know, it's it's this very weird phenomenon where we push air through our lungs, through our vocal apparatus, and we move our mouths and our tongues in these very strange and sophisticated ways, and and we produce these sounds that are that are really, really, really small and sophisticated. But in so doing, if you ever say, for example, you tell somebody like, hey, can you please get me a glass of water? Or hey, can you please turn on or off the lights or something like that? Then when you make those sounds, the person goes and does that thing. Let's say they go and get you the glass of water. Well, the crazy thing is that all you had to do was move your mouth and make these weird, weird sounds. And this person, literally your material universe, transformed based on your, you know, just by saying what you said, just by uttering sound, if you will. And so ancient societies of all kinds, you know, this is this is not only restricted to ancient Indians, but like, you know, the ancient Chinese, the ancient Greeks, that everybody recognized this phenomenon. And they considered it to be a very, very powerful thing that we have this power to affect our like material universe just by uttering sound. And therefore, our the sound that we utter is extremely important. And that's why the concept of your word being the most intrinsic thing to you, the most important thing that you wield was born, that your word is everything. In a society that is, say, for example, an oral society, like ancient Sanskrit society was, when you when you utter a word and you say you promise something, if you have promised it, then you must deliver on it, because that is the power of your word. If you don't deliver on it, then you can't be trusted by your society. I mean, you're immediately like an untrustworthy element, right? And you can't live harmoniously with your society. And so your word was like the most important thing that you could possibly give someone. Give someone, exactly. And so from that arose the next question. And this is like kind of this is something that happens everywhere, but it has a particular development in the Indian context. The next question was well, is there a language that is more powerful than others that has more capacity to effect this kind of change that we are witnessing on a on a transactional basis in the world? Is there such a language? And so from that arose the mythology of Sanskrit that surrounded this language that was like, there is this language of the gods. It's not only just like an ordinary language that we speak, but this is the language of the word itself. It is not only you giving your word, but by saying it itself, it's already like manifested, it's already true. And so combine these two stories, and you get this like very, very big world of beliefs surrounding the birth of this language and the power of this language. And so, anyway, so that's that's like the story to answer your question. And there are two like small verses in Sanskrit that also like demonstrate this belief, if you will. One is by Kali Dasa, of course, most famous Sanskrit poet ever. In his in his introduction, his like Mangala verse to the Ragu Vamsha, which is the story of Rama's lineage, he has this verse that goes like this Vagartha Viva Samprktau Vagar Thapprati Patta yeah, and what he says is that just like vak, which means speech, and artha, which means the objects of the speech. So I say iPad, and the actual object in front of me is the artha, uh, that is vak and artha, he says, just as vak and artha are inextricably linked, by saying one, the other appears in your mind, and by seeing it, the word appears also. So just as these two are inextricably linked, Vagartha pratipatta yeah, for the sake of manifesting the object of the speech that I'm about to give you, that is this whole poem, Jagatav Pittarau Vande. I salute the parents of the universe, Parvati Parameshwara, Parvati and Shiva. So he this this first verse is basically his prayer to Parvati and Shiva that the objects of my speech should manifest upon me speaking them. And the context is this wonderful poem, which is that when I recite the poem, then it should come alive for you. And then the other verse is from Bhava Bhutti's Uttara Rama Charitam, which is which is like a play that is about the what happens to Rama after he comes back from Lanka. So that's the like that's what the story is about. It's a tragedy, it's very sad actually. But of course, the entire Ramayana is a big tragedy, also. But in this, there is a verse that is basically also about the power of speech, which is, and what it means is that for ordinary people, laukika nam, sadhunam, for ordinary good people, our speech follows objects. We see a thing and then we talk about it. But for rishis and like, you know, what he calls the original people, for such people, when they say something, the objects of the universe rush forward. Anudhavanti. I mean, they they run forward to make what they said true. So that power of speech is something that you know Sanskrit people have learned about, they have thought about, they have codified in various ways, and it starts to make its appearance in poetry, in you know, in the general consciousness of Sanskrit, of the Sanskrit world. So, okay, anyways, uh that's enough out of me about that for now.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

There's so much more to say, but uh uh no, I appreciate it, and and it is such a vast topic that that that one question could be the entire episode.

SPEAKER_03 19:15

Indeed.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

And and and I appreciate the level of detail you're going into. I have two questions that are stemming from that. And you spoke about Sanskrit being the language of the gods, right? So where does Devnagri, that script, what is that in relation to Sanskrit? Because that's gonna come up for some of the listeners. What is Devnagri? And is that similar, part of, or different from what we're talking here?

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Ah, okay. So, okay, that's a great question. For the like original Sanskrit people, there was no script at all. It was completely oral, they did not write anything down. And in fact, you will see these injunctions that are like malika, malika, malika, which means don't write, don't write, don't write this down.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

Because as soon as you write it down, then all the stuff you thought you knew becomes relegated to the page and no longer your mind. So that's one thing. And of course, yeah, and of course, there's another aspect to that malika, which I'll tell you in a second, but it has to do with an insecurity about the language, too. But but but the Devanagari, to answer your question about Devanagari, scripts emerged like thousands of years after Sanskrit started to be spoken. And like the earliest script that we have access to is Brahmi, which is, of course, the script that you will see, for example, the Ashokan edicts in, you know, those inscriptions from like a couple centuries BCE. That's the first time we see like Sanskrit being reflected as a script written down in writing. And of course, what that means is that there were people who knew the script at that time. And I'm sure that the evidence we have now is only something that, you know, that was preserved over thousands of years, but there must have been writing that existed around that time or even a little bit before that time, too. But the handwriting we see on that also is like not the best handwriting, which also indicates to us that it's kind of the first time that they are starting to experiment with writing for a Sanskrit script. But anyway, over time, that Brahmi script evolves and branches off and goes to many, many different parts of the world. And people start representing Sanskrit sounds as squiggly lines on a page in different ways. And you can see the evolution of that. There are various places where they have like, you know, these like charts of the evolution of script from Brahmi all the way up to Devanagari that we use now. And the script, the Devanagari script that we Now know is relatively new. It's only a few hundred years old. I mean, I would say around 500 years old.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

And prior to that, people were using other popular scripts. There was a Grantha script, there was Sharada script. Basically, for the original Sanskrit people, it did not matter at all how you represent the language on the page because they they didn't even want to represent the language on the page. But if you do, then the rule was this: there should be one squiggly line per sound. And so there becomes this one-to-one relationship between the sound that you make, like that. There's a one-to-one relationship between that sound and the way in which it is transliterated onto the page. And that's like, I guess from that emerges the mythology of writing, also, which is like, oh, well, if this particular squiggly line represents the sounds of Sanskrit, which are now understood by us to be so powerful and divine and this and that, then the writing must also be, you know, elevated to that level. And I think in people's minds, it becomes very important for that reason. But I mean, according to everything I've ever read in Sanskrit, writing is not that important for like as far as like the language itself, you know. So today, at least my approach is like this that whatever writing system you are using to represent Sanskrit on the page, as long as you are consistent, it doesn't matter what the squiggly line itself actually looks like on the page. Of course, I mean, so for me, I'm a teacher, right? So for me, that's something convenient for my students. It's something that I do actually believe because I, you know, knowing this history of Sanskrit, it's hard to think that the script is like holds so much weight. But also over time, because of this belief in the importance of the script, too, because it's now representing this very, very powerful, potent thing, the pages, the palm leaves, the rocks, everything on which that script was inscribed also became elevated to a particular status, which is, you know, very important, very divine. So you will see in like the history of like tantric stuff, you know, the the like what you call like consecration of various parts of the body, various objects for ritual worship and things like that, that uses like, you know, the script that that basically makes the script something very powerful and divine and important, as something to be etched and inscribed into either the image that you're using or your own body itself, you know, in order to activate certain like you know, divine representations and things like that. So that belief also emerges over time as script becomes refined and that relationship between script and the language also becomes indistinguishable, you see. And so, yeah, anyway, but but Devanagari is very new. So, you know, yeah, that's my like take on Devanagari.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

You know, it reminded me of something from school and my early days in college. I studied Sanskrit, but but I studied it in a very simplified capacity. It was my first language for five, six, seven, or seven years. I don't remember the exact time range. And we always were emphasized on speaking it, reciting it, but we didn't have to write Sanskrit script. So we could answer the, I also think it was just the system of education that was set up at that point because we picked it as first language in eighth grade. So so we could, apart from some basic grammar things, we could write our answers in English.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

But a lot of it was oral. And and it reminded me of that. Like they never really emphasized the writing, but many other things that you took from those lessons. And a big part of at least this is my understanding, there's a lot of reverence that is there towards Sanskrit, and maybe because it's the language of the gods and the language of the rituals, and but there's this this seat of reverence that we give it. So would you say Sanskrit is somehow it sits differently or it has a this very pristine position in Indian philosophy? Like, does all Indian philosophy look at Sanskrit as being that supreme sound?

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Well, okay, that's a good question too. I think the PR about Sanskrit is very, very strong, right? Like I was saying, there's the mythology that surrounds this language due to the power of language just in general, along with this idea that Sanskrit is somehow derived from the universe itself. That it's like, oh, people did not, yeah, people did not create this language. It just sound of the universe. Yeah, it was just discovered as already existing within all things, and we simply, you know, codified it and took it as our. So, I mean, because of that like belief and feeling that people have towards Sanskrit, of course, to write in Sanskrit was to indicate the importance of your own philosophy, your own position that you are now making. You know, you could have said it in any language. Of course, everybody speaks and understands some other language other than Sanskrit too. Even the Sanskrit speakers were also speaking other like regional languages too. But a lot of them chose not to do that because Sanskrit indicates a kind of elite position of your philosophical position. There was somebody who did not choose to do that, very famously, who was the Buddha, who chose to speak in Pali. And, you know, kind of he regionalized his philosophical discourse. But the thing is that by in so doing, he reached many more people who were not allowed to access Sanskrit or who did not have access to Sanskrit. And, you know, I think that contributed a lot to the success of his philosophical movement too. And, you know, part of the reason why he did that was because, well, I speak in the language of the people because I want my philosophical teaching to reach the people. But somebody who writes in Sanskrit is not doing it for the people, if you will, the masses, because the masses are not educated in Sanskrit. It's only very recently that we achieve the kind of literacy rates that we even have right now. You know, that's a very recent phenomenon. Not everybody knew how to read and write. And on top of that, there's a hierarchy of languages and a kind of exclusivity of Sanskrit. So when somebody writes in Sanskrit to, you know, write their particular philosophical position, their intended audience is other people who are speaking Sanskrit or other people who know Sanskrit, obviously, because otherwise, why would they write in Sanskrit? And so, and on top of that, it indicates a kind of elevated status of their philosophical position. Because I wrote my text in Sanskrit, people understand it to already be on a kind of divine level. But when you get into the Sanskrit texts themselves, the interesting thing is that I mean, they very rarely agree with each other. Yes. So they're debating with each other, they're in the world of Sanskrit. And people on the outside are like, wow, wow, this is so divine, so beautiful. And then inside that world, there's this like, yeah, these huge battles going on. So now the question that emerges in my head about that is like, well, then why what was it about Sanskrit that made it so exclusive and all that stuff? And this is that insecurity I was mentioning before is that for the people who were developing this language, because of the power that they perceived in language, and because of the mythology that they're instilling in this particular language, and of course, the belief over generations that that power to manifest reality in a more profound way than simply telling someone to bring a glass of water, because of a deep-seated belief in that profound capacity of Sanskrit, there there arose this belief that, well, we can't let everybody have this language, because if it gets into quote unquote the wrong hands, then they could potentially destroy the whole universe by uttering the wrong thing. And so, so they they created this kind of like hierarchy of people, which is which is basically what we now think of as the caste system, right? Is like people's proximity. They understood people to have like innate qualities and characteristics. And they created this system whereby only the powerful elites who already were, you know, accessing this language and stuff could access it and could learn it and retain it and transmit it. And those who were outside of that status could not. And they created all these very, very harsh rules about if they do, then what happens to them. And, you know, so the hierarchization of human beings based on the desire to protect and preserve this like thing that they deemed very powerful and potent, also resulted in another thing, which is that the people who never had access to that, and therefore also didn't even have access to the terms of their own oppression, right? Because they can't read the texts in which the rules are written, they they begin to understand Sanskrit as something that that is like, you know, this like Vava, oh, it's something divine, it's something special. And as a result, when somebody wields this power and says, Hey, I have the power to curse you or to give you a boon based on my ability to wield Sanskrit, this language that has the power to manifest reality, then in an oral society, you would not mess with that person. You know, if someone, if someone claims to have that capacity, then you would probably be like, okay, okay, please don't harden it.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

It's a power dynamic.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Yes, exactly. Exactly. And that power dynamic then is is wielded by these elite people, you know, who call themselves the Brahmins. And they and they gift that power to the kshatriyas, the kings, because of course they are receiving patronage from the kings for for reciting mantras for them in order to get certain things. So with the mantras, this is an interesting thing about Sanskrit philosophy too, which is that what is a mantra, right? Like what is it exactly that that they conceive of as a mantra? Which is they started to, because they believed that Sanskrit has the power to manifest reality, they started to create these recitable sounds in Sanskrit that achieve a particular result, according to them, such as rain for the crops, having a child, particularly having a son. Of course, it's a very patriarchal system, so they never desire to have a girl, they only ever desire to have a boy to uh destroy my enemies. You see, because they they can do anything, they can say anything. So, so a mantra, then for them, is essentially a linguistic capsule, or to put it but a sonic capsule. That's the way I talk about it, that when it is recited, when it is, you know, internalized by the reciter, then it has the power, or it is believed to have the power to manifest some particular result. And they developed an entire system surrounding that of like how to do it properly, you know, how to recite this properly, how to um, and they preserved it very diligently over the years, which is actually quite a remarkable thing, the way in which Vedic recitation is transmitted from teacher to student. And they they basically said, like, hey, oh kings, we have this capacity. We would gladly recite the mantras for you. And we have developed a very elaborate ritual with a fire and offerings to the gods who will help you with this to basically help you defeat your enemies and conquer your enemies and things like that, or have the son, the royal prince that you've been willing, wishing to have for so long, and so on and so on. We have this capacity and we can basically work with you together to get what you want. Just you protect us also in return. And so, even within the mantras, you know, they have they have things about you know how they ask for this protection and how the kings dole out that protection in Vedic stories, too. You will see like this benevolent king who gifted this particular Brahmin a thousand cows and blah blah blah, you know. So you have all these stories that basically codify the relationship between the Brahmins and the Kshetrias. And that then creates this, like the power dynamic that we're talking about, that creates this kind of elite hegemony of these people over the rest. And of course, you need people who are gonna work the fields to give you food. You need people who are going to do various trades in order to, and so those people who were obviously not responsible for protecting the Brahmins and or the Kshatriyas or governing the, you know, the nation or whatever. Those people are then basically deemed as worthy of only doing that task, right? And so caste becomes associated with now you can only do the task that you were born to do because it's important for a society where to control the labor that's happening in that society. With all this background, then we see that, you know, Sanskrit is it's a complicated thing. On the one hand, it's this very beautiful language. I'm still answering your question about does it have a pristine status among other languages? You see, it has been worked on and refined, and and you know, there is, and of course, the people who were of the elite classes were the ones who, of course, had the time to work on this stuff and and really, really honed it to be this language of like very, very rigid rules and like what they consider to be perfection, and and its PR is such that people come to believe in its power to do more than an ordinary language can. So that's one half of it. And the other half of it is then it is also wielded as a tool of oppression, it's uh wielded as a tool of hegemony to basically hoard a power within this power dynamic between people in the hands of a very few people because of this belief in that power of Sanskrit. So I call so in my work, you know, I I write about this stuff, and and in my own work and my research, I call this power that Sanskrit has to manifest reality the orality of Sanskrit. That is A-U-R-A-L-I-T-Y. So the orality of Sanskrit is that kind of deep desire for Sanskrit to have this magic power. And that is the thing that people are after when it comes to learning Sanskrit, when it comes to preserving Sanskrit and transmitting Sanskrit. And that orality of Sanskrit is, of course, at the core of why people believe Vedic mantras have the effect that they do. That is the power of the Veda, is the Sanskrit. It's the sound, it's the recitation of it that has that power. And so over time, with this picture, of course, Sanskrit has the status that it does. You know, it's it's like without question understood as a classical language. When the when the British come to colonize India, then of course they are also interacting with the elites of the Indian society, which are the Brahmins, and they're learning their classical language, and they're like, wow, this is really fascinating and beautiful. We will call it their classical language. And they also then elevate it as like, oh, well, this is the important language of these people. This is the like, you know, and so over time, there's just so much conditioning and so much, like, you know, generations upon generations of the belief in this like power of Sanskrit that now, yes, it enjoys like this unquestioned superior status among all languages in India and even for that matter, languages in the world. Yes. Because that's what you know, people people really want that. And so then when it comes to yoga teachers, right? But and I'm sure, I mean, I'm sure this question is coming, but uh, but in the yoga classroom, then people are people want Sanskrit, but they think of it in terms of authenticity, not orality. And the the discussion about authenticity then kind of becomes the reason why people study Sanskrit for yoga purposes, thinking that you know, I'm doing staying true to the roots of it. Yeah, staying true to the roots of it. But because of all this story that we've just heard, of course, the power that's associated with Sanskrit is inextricable from the learning of the language itself. And at its root, the desire for that orality is what sits underneath the desire to learn Sanskrit for authenticity purposes as well. And anyway, there's more to say about that. I, you know, I'll I'll pause there for now.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

It's it's you know, it's fascinating. And that power dynamic is something that we should be talking about. And I and that fear of, you know, it's there in yoga too. It we call it Guha Vidya. It was secret knowledge because they believed all of this had like those subtle body practices, they had such potency that you didn't want half-baked knowledge. Right. And that could do actual physical, mental, emotional harm to you. So, speaking of yoga teachers and and this uh need to stay closer to the roots and be authentic, right? I've heard this in yoga schools and circles that every sound in Sanskrit has a vibration. And correct me if I'm wrong, and every sound is it vibrates a different part of your body. Now, I don't know if this was a teacher getting carried away or if it's an actual physical thing, and that we use the sound to work on our pranic body and to move the prana and to influence it in a certain way. So, how much truth is there to that? And if, for example, I then pronounce it slightly differently, will that curse you are talking about come after me in some form? Because I have had the privilege of being with some very traditional teachers and also the privilege of being with very modern teachers, you know, and sitting in both both circles. And I've been in circles with people who are very qualified in Vedic chanting who cannot tolerate you going off that pronunciation.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Right? And and at the same time, I've been in in on the other side where me with my very naive, almost non-existent knowledge of Sanskrit, sit there and think, okay, this is a little too far out from that. So your thoughts on that, and how much leeway do we have? How much leeway do non-Sanskrit speakers have?

SPEAKER_02 43:30

Yeah, that's a very electric question for especially for the yogic community and the yogic world. Well, you see, based on all the stuff we've talked about already, of course, you know, there is such a deep belief in the power that Sanskrit holds, and that power rests directly upon its being uttered in a particular way. And so for the traditional Vedic teacher, you know, or some the traditional Yoga teacher who knows Vedic chanting and like knows Sanskrit very well, or at least knows how to say stuff very well, even if they maybe they don't know grammar or something. The there is a belief that only saying it in one particular way is correct. And everything else is an aberration. Everything else is like, you know, in fact, everything else is frightening because when somebody says something that's just not quite right, then who knows what effect they are manifesting upon themselves and their surroundings and their environment and so on. So, you know, from the perspective of that teacher, it's understandable why they might have this like very strict thing, you know. But of course, I should mention that strictness and the perception that Sanskrit is something very difficult and only very few people can really do it correctly is part of the ethos of Sanskrit. It's part of the, it's part of the mythology of Sanskrit. In reality, as you study Sanskrit, and in my classes, this is what I always say like Sanskrit is actually very easy. It's very, very systematic, it's really, really simple. But again, the PR about Sanskrit is that it's very, very difficult. And the difficulty of Sanskrit is also a kind of gatekeeping mechanism, you know. And so the teacher who is very strict about the pronunciation of Sanskrit, and like if you say rrr or you say ru or you say ri, it really, really matters exactly how you say that. It's part of the ethos of transmitting Sanskrit to make the claim that the person who's learning is like always wrong until they're exactly a replica of me. That's uh, and of course, that almost never happens. So as a Sanskrit student, in most classrooms you will see, and this is in like Western academic classrooms too, there is this you're always kind of being bombarded with the idea that what you are undertaking is very, very difficult. It's it's something that only 1% of students ever survive the journey, you know, like that kind of thing. Even if you go into the introductions of like Sanskrit primers that were written over the last 100, 200 years, you will see all of them talk about the like the difficulty of it. And it's weird. You're a teacher, you're trying to inspire your students to learn, and you yourself are saying, This is very hard, then how will a student respond? But that's and then the student learns that and reproduces that same PR in their classroom that, like, hey, I survived this thing that makes me better than you. And now you, if you survive, then you can be sit next to me too.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

So on the one hand involved.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

Yeah, exactly. I mean, so on the one hand, there is the belief in the orality of Sanskrit. And on the other hand, there is the gatekeeping about the Sanskrit, the insecurity about the Sanskrit as well. And those two things combined create the very strict teacher that you have inevitably met. You know, now how much leeway do we have? I think you probably can already guess my opinion on this matter, is that it doesn't, it's not really that strict. Like it, it's it doesn't have to be something that is so rigid and forceful and you know what, and and take the joy out of it. Yes, exactly. Even yoga itself, as a practice, as a thing, from my understanding, is supposed to be something joyous, it's supposed to be something that brings calm and and even pleasure, and like, you know, and it and it brings you relief from the the workings of your mind. If you are always, if you're always burdened by the strict rules of Sanskrit and fear of doing it wrong, then how can you ever experience yoga as you, you know, if you will? And so so for me, it's actually not about Sanskrit at all. You know, Sanskrit just happens to be the medium in which, say, the yoga sutras are written, and a lot of debate about yogic philosophy has happened. But Sanskrit is itself doesn't have to be the medium of yoga per se. Yoga is a it can be a state, it can be a practice, and that state and practice need not necessarily involve Sanskrit to be successful. And when somebody feels that it needs it, then there's two things going on. You see, it depends who's saying it. One is from the perspective of like the Indian person or like the brown person in the Sanskrit war in the yoga world, you know, if say you're sitting in an American yoga classroom and you're like the only brown person in the whole classroom, which is a very common experience, right? Then if you're saying like, hey, you know, I feel like there's like some like appropriation going on here, there's something is not quite sitting right with me, that's one thing. And if you're like a white person and you're saying that, oh, well, we have to study Sanskrit if we're gonna do yoga correctly, that's another thing. There, they I feel like who's saying it and what what position they're coming at it from makes a big difference here, you know. If you're profiting from yoga and then on top of that, you're saying, I think we all have to study Sanskrit in order to do yoga correctly, then of course, you know, why do you believe that? That would be my question. What is it that leads you to think that Sanskrit has to enter into your classroom for it to be more complete? And of course, the answer to that is always the in the language of authenticity. I'm just trying to be true to the practice, I'm just trying to be true to yoga. But in reality, you know, yoga by itself has a whole life, a whole universe that sits outside of Sanskrit too. You know, prior to outside of contemporary with Sanskrit, there's all kinds of yoga that exists that isn't bounded by the Sanskrit discourse. So if somebody says, I need to introduce Sanskrit into my classroom, especially say it's like a white yogi, you know, who's like the teacher, there's already a hierarchy there of teacher and student and like knower and not knower. When you introduce Sanskrit in there, it becomes even more complex. Yes, you introduce a different layer of the hierarchy too, a linguistic hierarchy that I know not only do I know the asanas and the you know, like the philosophy, but I also know the language, and that creates yet another layer of hierarchy wherein the teacher in the yoga classroom gets to essentially embody the elite people of the culture that they are, you know, they think that they are being authentic to. So I get to now be the Brahmin of in the classroom, you know, and it leads to, in my opinion, it leads to an unnecessary power dynamic, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

Yes, in the classroom. Yes. No, it's very important that you're saying that. The way I see it is simply this. I tell people, just like what you said, it's a state, right? Yoga is a state, and that state does not have a language. Because sometimes I have teachers who are so new to yoga who have so much basic yoga to still learn. I Sanskrit should not be on that list of things. And I always tell them learning Sanskrit is not, while it may be joyful, it's a lot of work. And and learn your yoga first. And what do we in modern classes need? We need to be able to at best pronounce the names of poses and asanas, which is after a certain amount of time with the matter, the subject matter, should be reasonably effortless, plenty of ways to learn it. And you need to know how to chant some basic mantras that we start class with. And those are a handful of things that are common to the yoga world. So that is all someone needs in terms of Sanskrit, right? Then if you are going into deeper philosophical study, you're getting into the sutras and the Gita and the Hata Yoga Pradipika, then you study with someone who knows Sanskrit. You don't have to go learn Sanskrit. And because then you're trying to learn two subjects at the same time, and you may not go anywhere in either. And so go sit with someone like you and others who know the in and out of it, right? And who can hold that space for learning instead of a do-it-yourself project. So I'm glad you are clarifying that. Because we there's so much to go into. Of course. And I will talk to you for the next four hours about. I'm just looking at my list of questions and I'm like, okay, we do all of them, you will be here for four hours. But if there is one thing you could leave the listeners with, especially in the realm of that sound vibration and Sanskrit, and what would that be, Varudha?

SPEAKER_02 53:16

Okay, that's let me let me continue the story that I started with. Um, you see, the Sanskrit people, they or the people who were developing Sanskrit encountered a philosophical problem when they discovered that the universe is made up of vibrations and stuff like that. Because what they found is that, well, if we think of what a vibration is, it's an oscillating movement, right? It's a movement. They were like, well, in order for a movement to exist, there has to be some kind of substratum that means a platform on which that movement exists. So what I mean is like for you to walk from where you're currently sitting to the door of the room that you're in, you need the floor. Without that, say you're just in space and you have no, you have not moved at all, you will never make it to the door. Because there's no platform for you to move. And so similarly, all vibrations require some kind of platform for them to exist at all, which means that a word. So let's take, I mean, let me give you an example or two of some words that I find to be very fascinating in Sanskrit, you know, just generally for the sake of the listeners. So, say for example, I'm sitting here on this chair, right? In in Sanskrit, the word for a chair is asandaha, or I should say one word for a chair is asandaha. There are infinite words for everything, and I'll explain why exactly in this story. Asanda comes from two roots, or two, I think of the roots of Sanskrit as like Lego bricks, you know, they they piece together and you can create castles with them. So it comes from two bricks. One brick is from the root as, which means to sit, so asam, and then one is daha, one who and daha means one who gives. So one who gives or protects your asana. Right? That's what asana, of course, you know. So one who gives or protects your posture is called a asanaha, a chair. And suddenly that word is no longer just a the word itself is no longer just a arbitrary set of sounds that is a reference to an object, but rather the word in itself contains something about the experience of that object. And and every single word in Sanskrit is like that. So, like for a tree, for example, you might say the word padapa. Pada means a foot, and paha means one who drinks. So one who drinks from his feet is called a padapaha. And it's really fascinating. I mean, of course, uh, we could get into the world of Sanskrit like etymology and what you know, words and stuff, but in the world of Sanskrit, you're surrounded by these things, and naturally in your mind, as you speak the language, you are you are faced with certain knowledges about the stuff around you all the time. And you can't help but act according to that knowledge, you know, of the value of the stuff around you. It's a very, it's a very profound experience. But the problem that these that these people encountered was that, well, if a word like asandaha or padapa is a vibration, then it must be resting upon another platform, a substratum, a platform, in order for that sound to even happen, or in order for that object to exist, if you will. And that platform is also part of the universe, and therefore itself must be of the nature of a vibration. And that vibration, therefore, also needs another platform to stand on, and so on and so on. And this is a philosophical problem called infinite regress. Maybe you have seen this image, it's a very popular image in like, I think it's like an old Buddhist image of like turtles sitting on top of each other all the way down to infinity. So one turtle, which is one vibration, needs another turtle, which needs another one, another one to stand on. And according to these folks, if that was the, if that is the case and it really goes infinitely down forever, then there is no ultimate substratum on which all of this is resting. And I can't experience the universe that's in front of me. It wouldn't be here, simply. And so they theorize an ultimate substratum, some kind of like infinite platform that all other vibrations rest on that allows them to exist, but that itself does not need another platform to stand on by nature of it, by virtue of its infiniteness. And that platform they give the name Om. Maybe you have heard this before. And of course, om finds its place at the heart, at the center of all Sanskrit-related philosophy. It's there in the Upanishads, it's there even in Buddhism, in Jainism, in you know, all these other religious systems that emerged in the Indian subcontinent. It's even there in the Yoga Sutras themselves, where Patanjali talks about the nature of as well. Yes, the pranava mantra. Exactly. So it's like the ultimate mantra, which is related, which is basically infinite, which is what so the word pranava itself has that sense of like something that is always ever new, expanding, infinite. And so this sound om, this word om they give as the name to that ultimate substratum platform. And so then from that arises the philosophical conclusion that, well, wait a minute, if ohm is truly infinite, that means it cannot have any boundaries. And if it doesn't have any boundaries, that means that all the words that we know for finite things like computer, iPad, pencil, all of those cannot be different from om, because if they were, then om would have a boundary. And therefore, everything is actually just that om vibration in different like manifestations. When I say sanganakam to refer to a computer, then I am saying om in the form of sanganakam. I myself am om in the form of varun or this particular body. You are om in the form of aruntati. And so the conclusion from that is that I and everything around me are already one, are already om. And and my my life, my behavior, my way of being in relation to others, based on that knowledge, is yoga. And that sits at the heart of literally everything that is there. If we understand that to be the case, let's say, then Sanskrit or no Sanskrit, I'm just me, and you are just you, and we are just uh us, we are just one. You see, so and that is that is the conclusion of the story of Sanskrit, which by its very telling actually makes the study of Sanskrit itself something that was only a medium to finally get rid of itself, you see, it was only only a scaffolding for a particular understanding that once you have it, you need not the scaffolding anymore. And so that's why for me, when Sanskrit becomes a tool for an unnecessary power dynamic, a tool for oppression, you know, a tool for imagining oneself to be elite and higher and better than others, then that is exactly the point at which Sanskrit has ruined its own purpose, if you will, you know, for the in the philosophical sense. And and as such, I think if we start going down that path and if we identify that that is what is happening with the introduction of Sanskrit into a system, then better not to have it at all. But if we are doing it with the purpose, with the intention of recognizing those power dynamics that exist, working to break those power dynamics, then Sanskrit can be a useful and helpful tool. And that is what Sanskrit for Mere Mortals, which is my platform, is all about. It's about breaking down those barriers and breaking down the entry point into learning Sanskrit for those who desire to do so. Wonderful. And about trying to not have these hierarchies within the classroom and within our spaces, within our community as we learn. So, anyway, that's what I would like everybody to understand from this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:34

Wonderful. No, Varun, there is so much that you have packed into this conversation. It's one of those that you will need to listen to a few times to understand the layers of it. And that's a beautiful way to learn Sanskrit. Like it's not consuming this material, it's really learning it in waves. And and so, no, thank you for that. If listeners would like to connect with you and learn more about what you do, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:03

So please find me at Sanskritformeortals.com. That is my platform. That's where I teach Sanskrit, that's where I teach Sanskrit-related subjects. I have a ton of courses in the pipeline, studies of the Upanishads, studies about consciousness, studies about yoga, history, and philosophy, studies about the epics, and so on and so on. I mean, there's so much stuff there. Lots of stuff in the pipeline. So please find me there or on my Instagram at SanskritForMeer Mortals. And yeah, I hope to connect with lots of your listeners who may be interested in learning Sanskrit or Sanskrit-related stuff. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:38

Wonderful. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Varud. I hope you will be back for more nerdy conversations. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:45

Definitely. It's my pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:49

Thank you so much for listening. As always, you can find all the show notes at letstalk.yoga forward slash listen. I'll see you next week with another episode. Until then, take care. Enjoy your practice. Bye bye.