Bandhas 101 - What Yoga Teachers Need to Know with Sandra Anderson

What are the bandhas, and why do they play such an important role in Hatha Yoga? Sandra Anderson joins me to explore the physical, energetic, and meditative purpose of Mula Bandha, Uddiyana Bandha, Jalandhara Bandha, and Maha Bandha, along with practical guidance for yoga teachers.

Episode Highlights:

• Meaning and purpose of bandhas
• Bandhas in asana, pranayama, and meditation
• Understanding Mula Bandha
• Male and female differences in Mula Bandha
• Contraindications for Mula Bandha
• Understanding Uddiyana Bandha
• Avoiding excessive muscular effort
• Preparing the body for bandhas
• Teaching bandhas without labels
• Signs of effective bandha practice
• Understanding Jalandhara Bandha
• Jalandhara Bandha in pranayama
• Understanding Maha Bandha
• Yoga practice without bandhas
• Presenting energetic practices responsibly
• Teaching advice for yoga teachers
• Sandra's courses and resources

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to episode 231 of the Let's Talk Yoga Podcast. I hope your summer is going great. I just came back from teaching at the Lake Tahoe Yoga Festival and I'm just getting back into the swing of things, and I have a wonderful episode for you. This is a topic that I've been wanting to do for many years. In fact, yesterday we celebrated six years of the Let's Talk Yoga podcast. August 4th, which will be a few days after you listen to this episode, is our sixth anniversary. And I am so excited to celebrate this milestone with all of you. When I started the podcast, as you know, I thought I know enough yoga to maybe get to 20 episodes. And I always thought that if this was really bad, I would just delete it and nobody would know. And here we are today bringing you episode 231. And as a celebration of this milestone, I would love for you to leave us a review and a rating. It makes such a difference. You can do this on Apple Podcasts, you can do it on Spotify, you can even subscribe to our YouTube channel, which has so much coming up in the realm of yoga education and material for yoga teachers. So it would mean a lot to me if you could pause this recording right now and leave us a rating and a review, because we have maintained for six years no sponsors, no ads on this podcast. And I would love to keep it like that. So your learning is like you are in this digital yoga shalom. Now let's come back to today's episode. This episode is all about the bandhas. Now, before we get into the episode, I would like to clarify that we pronounce this as bandhas, not bandhas. Like it's not a ban that you're putting on something. This is bandhas. Okay, so we talk about bandhas, the energetic locks, and I have Sandra Anderson on the show today from the Himalayan Institute. Sandra teaches yoga, meditation, somatic psychology, and yoga philosophy. And a lot of her work with the Himalayan Institute is available online. She is one of their key instructors, and she has co-authored the award-winning book, which is called Yoga Mastering the Basics. She's a frequent contributor to the Himalayan online library, and we talk about that at the end of today's episode. Her work draws on her immersion in this living oral tradition, which I believe is very precious in yoga. She studied traditional Hata Yoga text. She has trained in Sanskrit, and she also has a background in environmental science. She's a longtime resident teacher of the Himalayan Institute. And I am so excited to have Sandy on the show today because we really unpack what the bandhas are. And the bandhas are often taught a little loosely and not with enough context. So I sit down with Sandra to unpack what the bandhas are. By the end of today's episode, you will understand what is a bandha, what is the purpose of a bandha, what are the three main types of bandhas? We talk about Moola Bandha, Udhyana Bandha, and Jalandhara Bandha, and what is Maha Bandha, and what is the need for these bandhas? How do they support our practice of yoga? And what does it mean to teach these bandas? Can you still be a high-quality yoga teacher without ever touching the bandhas? And a lot of nuances around how to bring these to the world and how to engage with them and what their purpose is. So Sandra covers a lot of ground on this episode. So I hope you enjoy this. She also talks about some of her bandha courses and other work at the end of today's episode. So I have linked everything for you in the show notes, in the podcast description. And I hope that you have a little more clarity about the bandhas by the end of today's episode. And one last announcement before you get to today's episode. We are less than two months away for our Italy yoga retreat. It's called Prana and Presence. And believe it or not, most people are signing up now. So if you want to be spontaneous and you want to spend a week under the Southern Italy sun, make sure you check out the link to that retreat. Let's get to today's episode about the Bandhas with Sandra Anderson from the Himalayan Institute. Hi everyone, I'm Arundati, and you've just tuned in to the Let's Talk Yoga Podcast, your ultimate online destination for learning about yoga. Whether you're a seasoned yoga teacher or a curious yoga student, there's something for you here. Let this podcast be your virtual yoga school. We offer insights, inspiration, and loads of dirty exploration of yoga along the way. But first, who am I? I'm an Indian immigrant yoga teacher living in America for the past decade. I have my own yoga community. I'm also a Hollywood choreographer, and I've learned a diving yoga community at my studio, as well as a local yoga audience to my courses at this podcast. Through this podcast, I intend to create a space for you, the yoga student and yoga teacher, to learn about yoga. Think of this as your online yoga school free teacher training coming to you every week. So grab your cup of chai and let's jump in. Hi, Sandi. Welcome to the Let's Talk Yoga podcast. Hey, thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for being here. I have been looking forward to this conversation because this particular topic, the topic of the bandhas, has been on my mind for so many years. Like I told you a moment ago before we started recording, that I've been wanting to have an episode on the bandhas for so long, but it is such a complex and nuanced and layered topic. So I'm glad that you are here to help us get a little more clarity on the bandhas. So for starters, what exactly is a bandha? And usually we hear it being interpreted as a lock or a seal. But what exactly are we sealing?

SPEAKER_03 6:41

Well, that's that is the question, isn't it? I think literally it's good to understand. I mean, it's called a lock because I think that's the pedestrian definition of what it is. And you probably know in in India there are buns on the road where there's a roadblock, literally, usually meant to, you know, pay the fine so you can get through or to go on. So it has that sense of actually stopping the flow, in that case, the flow of traffic. In the body, it's about stopping or re I think maybe stopping isn't quite the right word, but redirecting the flow of the life force, prana. So, and because the experience of prana is our experience of it is everything that we are experiencing in life, but the essence of life force that's giving us those experiences, prana, is not a physical force. So the bandas have a physical component which is meant to give access to or to affect this pranic level, the pranic body, which is part of the subtle body. And so, in that sense, it's kind of manipulating the subtle body by using the physical body, was what a bandha is doing. So it, and so you can under you can see how and why what you just said about the bandas and why you haven't talked about it in a while, is because many of us are are it takes time to begin to be sensitive to the flow of prana. And it's not just the physical aspect of things that we're after. So therefore, there's it's easy to have a misunderstanding about what uh bandas mean for us. But short answer, it's meant to redirect the flow of prana. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

So speaking of these bandhas, are they typically meant to be done in a specific order or in a specific placement? Do we do them in asana? Do we do them after basics of pranayama or a preparatory practice to pranayama or somewhere else?

SPEAKER_03 9:08

I think the applications are wide-reaching. So any or all of the above, depending on what you intend to do or accomplish. So there are techniques that are meant to achieve a particular end. Generally, they're done. Well, let's say, let's back up a bit. There's there's the physical way in which they're done, and sometimes working with getting access to them, we maybe actually work with the physical aspect, like we're working to strengthen the abdominal wall and our awareness of it and to cultivate sensitivity and to cultivate the capacity to actually implement the practice, but we might also be doing them in asana for a particular purpose to stabilize, to create a certain energetic configuration. Um, and there's not only the kind of active use of bandas and asana, but I have come to think of them as working on a very subtle level as well in pranyama and in meditation, where there's not the gross physical activation, but a subtle stabilizing of the ways and places in our in our subtle body that we tend to lose pranic energy, to leak chronic energy, or that the it's like the doors are open or the windows are open in the house of the body. And the subtle application is one for the meditative mind, where you stabilize the flow of energy through the core of the body for your meditation practice, and it's meant to solidify and collect and direct through this inner channel that leads our being, our sense of ourselves, our awareness, the chronic force to unite with the deeper layers of the mind and move deeper into the non-physical realm. So in that sense, yeah, they're subtle.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

I've always and in the other sense they they're more physical. Understood. I've always learned bandhas or understood bandhas as a very nuanced practice, and you approach it after you've done a lot of preliminary work because sometimes these subtle body practices, if not done in a specific regulated way, they can actually cause more havoc. So typically we hear of the three bandas, right? So can we start unpacking them a little bit? And the most PR usually goes to Molabandha. So can we talk a little bit about mulabandha? And are these bandhas inherently, Sandy, different from say a biological male body to a female body? How do these bandhas interact with us?

SPEAKER_03 12:16

Well, there's a couple of questions in there. First of all, it's it's good to think about from starting to work with them at every level, including the the gross level or the physical level, is thinking about the way that we are sort of autopilot configured in the subtle realm, the subtle body, is that the the life force is moving out through the five senses, the cognitive senses, but also the five active senses, which are not necessarily part of our understanding, but but the active senses allow us to act in the world. And there are five of them. Two of them are in the pelvic floor, the excretion and reproductive functions, and then the others are locomotion, which is also connected into the pelvis, and manipulation through the hands and speech. So uh that those capacities we are you we understand how we work with those in physical yoga and we stop, we we we work to have energy and then we work to bring it to a focus and a focus through the core of the body, essentially, depending again again on what our intentions and goals are. Sometimes people's goals are just to heal their lower back or whatever. So you know, there's a different, but the understanding of the best, the highest level of understanding of how we work with physical yoga is that we collect the energies of the body and we move them to deeper centers of the mind so that they begin to empower a different level of awareness and a different sense of ourselves, to put it simply. So when we're thinking about it in that way, these ways in which our life force is configured just on autopilot is moving out into the world. Our nervous system is configured, you know, to take in information and to act on it. Even when we close our eyes, even when we are not smelling anything, even when we're sitting still, it's like the potentials are still there and they're still open to whatever their sense their targets are in the world around us. So the bandas are designed to be able to close those doors and to stabilize the energy flow that's potentially just sitting there waiting to jump out into the world. So we look at the physical body and think about where is it the most needing stabilization through the because the three maiden pundas run through the center axis. And then you think about where where in that axis most needs stabilizing. And you know that's an easy question when you think about the body for those of us who work in asana, because what needs stabilizing the neck, the lumbar spine, which is you know, your lower back, your pelvic floor. Those are all areas where you're most likely to need containment. And that's exactly where those three bandas work. So on the physical level, they really do stabilize. So, what is the purpose of mulabandha? Well, mulabandha is stabilizing those two very primal, very powerful forces that are moving out through the pelvic floor. So it's stabilizing the foundation. And if you think even on the physical level of mulabandha, the weight of the viscera, all the organs kind of sit down on the pelvic floor there. So over time, if we make no effort to shore up or strengthen the pelvic floor or to somehow um have more awareness of that, there we get you know, prolapse, we get incontinence, we get, you know, all the diseases of age, essentially is what they're called, but really it's just failing to maintain muscular tension and strength in an area that's a whole wrap. It's like a diaphragm. You probably know this because of your studies, the pelvic floor being also considered to be a some, you know, some layers of muscles. So we think of them as a almost like a diaphragm, and we have that pelvic diaphragm, and we have the respiratory diaphragm. So the strengthening of that pelvic floor has enormous physical benefits for us, as well as the subtle ones that we've been alluding to. And the first and foremost being that stabilizing of the organs in their place and the stabilizing of the whole structure because our center of gravity is right above that pelvic floor. So mulah meaning root, and is you know, you're creating strength in your root by working with mulabandha.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

So, how is mulabandha different in a biological male body versus a female body?

SPEAKER_03 17:14

Well, obviously, I don't really have a lot of experience with male body, but I think I think it is different. I mean, yeah, of course it's different. I don't think it means that there's a whole lot different in our work with it. My sense is that with women, the activation point for that kind of upward movement of the pranic force is a little deeper than it is for men. And so we have to work a little bit harder, shall we say? And also just anatomically, there's uh a bigger opening in the pelvic floor, there's less continuity of muscle strength. So the strengthening of the pelvic floor becomes particularly uh important for women. Fair. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Is there any specific instances where mulabandha would be contraindicated where we would ask practitioners to not work with it?

SPEAKER_03 18:18

You know, I could imagine there are medical conditions where that might be the case, but I I can't be very specific about it. You know, I I think the only thing that I would say is for women on their menstrual cycles, if you actually get skillful at working with Mulla Bandha and usually done with Udyanabandha as well, you know, sort of a pulling up through that whole lower area of the channel, you will actually interrupt your menstrual cycle. You'll stop the downward flow. So that is that should be avoided because that's a natural cleansing practice that you don't want to interfere with. And my experience has been that that's a it's a difficult time to actually do that practice. And so you don't, you know, if you're paying attention, you don't do it then. You just don't really feel like it now, it doesn't, you don't really have very good access. So you don't push it. And that could be true for a few days up prior to your cycle starting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

So you gave me a beautiful segue. You mentioned Udyana Bandha, right? Yeah. So can we talk a little bit about what is Udhyana Bandha?

SPEAKER_03 19:35

You know, I think there's sometimes there's some different understandings of it or different applications or different techniques taught with it. Literally, it means upward flying, as you know. Oot is what happens when oot, which has an upward meaning, hits Yanabandha. So it's an upward flying bird in some of the scriptures. And it's just meant to kind of lift from the energy from mullabandha in the and the pelvic centers, uh, kanda, the root kind of center of vitality, a bit higher to give it a little collection pulled in and pulled up. In practice, it sometimes is taught as the sucking of the diaphragm up under the ribs with the breath held out. But I think that's kind of a natural result of first mulabanda and then the whole abdominal wall comes back in and up because part of that whole process. So there's a way in which the separating out of the bandas is somewhat arbitrary and used maybe to help get a better handle on how or where the where you need to work or strengthen, but but not necessarily not necessarily done independently of each other. Although you certainly can draw your lower abdomen in and pull your diaphragm up under your ribs without contracting your pelvic floor, but I'm not sure that there's a whole lot gained from doing that because again, the bandas are meant not only to redirect, but to integrate through the core of the body. That's the integration, and that's what stability is about as well. So you would probably do it with, you know, in conjunction with these other kinds of practices. And sometimes it's not holding the breath out. Well, if you're going to pull the diaphragm up under your ribs, the breath is held out, and then you draw it up under, and that can be made then to seal energy in the torso, which gives you rejuvenation and nourishment to the whole business of you know, the heart, the lungs, the liver, etc.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Yeah. I think one of the things that I've noticed we don't understand quickly enough is how much energy leakage, how much that prana is flowing out of our body. So, and the yogis devised all these different ways of pulling. It back in or holding it back in. And there are many layers to the subtle body. But something I have personally struggled with in practice is how do you, Sandy, know if you are just muscling through it? Because honestly, for years I thought I was just holding my muscles, tightening everything, looking at what the teacher is doing and saying. And that looks so light and effortless. And of course, draw it in, suspend the breath and hold. But I think I was just cleansing, like clenching, tensing. And it looked like I was trying to do something, but I know internally I was just holding everything. So how how do we refine that technique?

SPEAKER_03 22:50

Well, yeah, you probably already know the answer to that. And that's the way we just keep practicing. But I think I think you put hit on a key thing there too, about being really honest about what you what your experience is. So you're not fooling yourself about that this is the perfect thing. And that you even now I think of myself as as working in that way, kind of automatically for me, that's coming into play. But but there's always refinement. And there are days or times where I can't get access. And to just know that is like, okay, so it really is a subtle thing, and it really does require a whole lot of other preparation. So it requires that I have some strength, some sensitivity, some also just that I'm not chronically depleted in general. So that you have something to work with. But I think in terms of preparation, uh, which you were probably, you know, uh right in the middle of that when you just described your situation for me, is creating a strong asana practice that allows you to develop some strength and awareness in that area. So there's a granular kind of sensitivity to all the different ways the abdominal wall can work and how it's related to the legs and the pelvic floor, and control over the diaphragm and control over the abdominal wall, control over the connection between the two, control over your nervous system and the way you're breathing. So diaphragmatic breathing, good abdominal strength and alignment, and a balanced nervous system, calmness. There's just a lot of factors that need to come together. And I think I almost never talk about the bandus in independently of or even in a drop-in class, but rather give instruction that allows people to start to have nuanced awareness and capacity and access to pelvic areas in the body and to do situations where they have no choice but to actually be engaged in that way. So hip balance, for example, gomukasana, sitting on the heel with your arms and your legs wrapped. All of those are ways in which it makes it a lot easier to actually be aware of and start to work with that particular energy. And then when you you finally start getting that, you you also have to keep using it or you lose it. I it it brings up that idea of muscle tone, you know, tonus, where if you lose that toness from inactivity of any kind, you lose the capacity to have the subtle effortlessness that comes from having strength.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

So I have two questions from that. One is just one is more an observation. I've always noticed this that I've noticed two groups of teachers, especially after I moved here, here being uh to America, there's a lot of naming and labeling. I spent a lot of time with teachers back home where they would not name and label right away. And they would just tell you to engage the pelvic floor in a certain way to draw a specific part in. It was very descriptive. But I've also been in asana classes here where they say turn on your mulabandha, like it's a switch, you know. And I would always be in there thinking, okay, but you have to tell us how. And so, and I think that's also where my clenching and holding and all those other things come from because it it's it's not meant to be just named and figure it out. It's an observation, it's it there's there's no real question there. But but for years I remember, or for a long time, I had teachers who were actually making us learn the basics of a bandha and never named it. And that's exactly what, yeah, yeah, and just let us explore and did not tell us the end destination before we even got midway. And would just I would always wonder why my teacher was talking about the pelvic floor back in the day, right? And I would just be like, Well, I can barely figure out where my foot is, leave alone where the pelvic floor is and how to engage.

SPEAKER_03 27:09

That's very true.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

And he would keep saying that, and I would always think, huh, but it made sense later that he was in Bandan.

SPEAKER_03 27:19

And you started, yeah, and you started getting access to it, you started being aware of it.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Yeah, and it was just you know, just a little bit, a little bit, a little bit versus saying, turn on your Udyana, turn on your mulaban. Yes, and exactly a very nuanced way of learning. So that brings me to my next question. How do we know that this is manifesting in the right way? Like one of my teachers would always say, Sandy, that be careful what you bring to pranayama, because pranayama isn't necessarily calming, it is amplifying. So you bring in a scattered mind and you do a certain specific pranayamas, you probably will be more scattered when you leave. So he always would say, if your presence is not there, your awareness is not there, go do something else that day to get to that state. So, how are there any clear markers, anything that we could look at and be like, okay, if we're doing this Bandha work in a good way for lack of a better word here, it's supposed to, is it supposed to make us clearer, calmer, energized? How do we know?

SPEAKER_03 28:45

I that kind of brings up an interesting thought for me, and that is that there's really maybe two different ways of working with bandas, and it depends a little on what your overall practice is. So for me, in a meditative tradition, the the end goal is that I have an integrated awareness and a very, very stable situation in my sitting posture, and that the mind is relaxed but very alert, and that there's a sense of unbroken continuity flow from the pelvic floor to the crown of the head, all through the body, which requires a stabilization over a long period of time, meaning, you know, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 40 minutes. And the longer you're stable in that way, the more you can intensify that circulating power that will allow you to have a deeper meditative sort of awareness. So it's a redirecting and then a stabilizing that's like creating a laser vein kind of thing that allows you to penetrate the deeper layers of the mind. So that the I would say the progress in your meditation in your movement towards meditation would be the the measure for whether you are being successful with your bandas, which really doesn't have anything to do with whether you suck your diaphragm under your ribs or not, you know, or or your chin is pulled into your throat with Jalandhar Bandha, but rather this sense of integrated, unbroken flow that's very stable. So that would be the most stable or the most subtle, but also that's the intention behind working with all of the Hatta Yoga practices in service of meditation. And um, that would be what many of us are working with. However, I think there's also a way of working with the Hatta Yoga techniques that move to just more directly awaken the power in the body and thinking about maybe Kundalini yoga, maybe it's moving towards the experience of nada or experience of joy with bhakti yoga. You know, there are other ways or other intentions. And there are also people who are practicing mostly because they're wanting to create a healthier body and just more vitality. And they may not have the intention or the patience or the training to meditate. So, but they may have the skills and the awareness and the capacity for to work with the bandhast. They may have enough mastery over asana practice and inner awareness to work with Bandhast. And in that case, it might be just that they are, as you say, invigorated and vitalized and energetic and uplifted in a way, fearful in all circumstances or most or appropriately in their emotional life. So there's a way in which that energy can be used then to recirculate. So you seal from the top down. That might be one of the reasons why you would work really strongly with Jalandhar Bandha, this physical version of that where you shut off energy flowing up with your chin in your throat to just really create the chronic pressure, if you will, in the body itself, yeah, to nurture and vitalize the organs and create a healthier, more chronically infused situation for yourself. And that has mental consequences too.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Speaking of Jalandara Bandha, right? And and sometimes I've heard it being translated to chin lock, though jala is is different. So to me personally, I feel like this is the easiest of the bandhas.

SPEAKER_03 32:33

Yeah, yeah, physically, yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Yeah, compared to the others, at least there's no clenching. Very easy to get access to that. Yes. So, what is the intention of Jalandara Bandha? I've heard things like it's very quieting for the mind, it's cooling for the body, and it cools all your prana up here in the neck, and like you said, it stops that flow. But what is the the reason behind Jalandharabandha?

SPEAKER_03 33:05

You know, I think again, I think too, there's the the gross level of application, which is the chin, and we'll I'll speak to that first. When I think about it, I think one, yeah, sealing the container from bottom and top. And then for the reasons we just talked about, you know, when you you know you put pressure in your garden hose to clear any obstructions in it, you know, you hold the hold the end on both ends. So you you do that in the body to create that kind of refreshing that happens. And also in a practice in particular, that's what you're doing. So it has that application. But also on the physical level, if you think about the important glands in the throat, the thyroid gland, the parathyroid gland, and to actually put pressure on those glands and to stimulate circulation there has got to have some influence that that would be positive. So the thyroid gland controls our metabolism. It's a pretty high functioning gland. You know, it's it's not a one little thing that it affects. And the parathyroid glands control calcium concentrations in the bloodstream, which is huge. Your nervous system, your bone structure, the you know, it's just implicated in everything. So these are two really important endocrine glands that are targeted very directly with, and if you think about also where we get easy, easy access, but also the some of the more challenging asanas give you access to, or really push that forward. So sarvangasana, the shoulder stand and alasana, the plow pose, just really put put it right into the throat. And I think that that that might be one of the reasons why we would think of it being important. But then on the subtler level, the meditative level, we were just talking about the neck, as you know, is very mobile. It has a huge the head has a huge range of movement, and that means that it also has a lot of ways that things get out of kilter. So probably the lower back and the neck and shoulders and are the mobile number one. Yeah, and they're the number one place where you have injuries and and discomfort and pain and trouble and interruptions to disruptions to their natural range of movement. So practically everyone has some kind of neck issue at some point in their life. And therefore, that that subtler application of Dalandarbandha is to stabilize the correct alignment of the head relative to the chest. And that becomes important in any kind of sitting posture for a length of time, whether it's Rhyama or meditation, but it's important for good health because the over time, as we are starting to discover with our head forward into or buried into our screens kind of thing, there are bad consequences for the upper spine and for the neck and head, and overall good health. So to stabilize the proper alignment through the uh head between the heart and the head, essentially, you know, there's metaphorical implications right there. Head and heart connected, integrated, proper relationship. So so yeah, I think that would be one of the other things to think about with on the pranic level, on the sadural level.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

For Jalandharabandham, do we always have to drop the chin in pranayama practices or any dharana type of practices? Or is that a later stage? Like for a beginner, we would keep their chin more parallel, let them be more alert, and then as you get more refined, more experienced, then would we bring in the chin lock, or would it be a beginner's can also attempt this?

SPEAKER_03 37:12

I think it might be the other way around. The beginners do the really intense thing. I don't know that anyone would do that unless they intended to, you know, in the asana, for example, where you were like we just talked about. I don't think in pranayama you you want to, because in pranayama, you're wanting, I mean, that's there's certain exceptions a lot mentioned, but usually in pranayama, you are trying to create awareness through that axial and not shut that down somehow. Plus, you know, it it affects the free the flow of breath. It's not desirable unless that's what you're trying to do. So when you're doing something like UJI, then you are creating a bandha here because that's where you restrict the flow of breath through the system, the respiratory system. But it's not by bringing the chin down, it's by pulling back a little bit in here to create that bandha. So the bandha isn't isn't a gross one, it's not the shoving up your chin down, it's more subtle and it narrows the respiratory passage that focuses the breath and the pranic awareness and your mental awareness right to the roof of the mouth, which is where the talu is. And then that goes up into the chakra at the center of the head. So so there's a subtle thing that's happening there, but not the gross one. And I think the only exception I can think, and there may be others, is when we're doing things like Agnisara, where you're creating a lot of predatory in the lower body and through the diaphragm pulling up. And then you can get stuff stuck in the throat unless you have it closed. And again, that's a situation where you're you're just really creating more vitality that's circulating in the torso and not moving all the way. Yeah. So I think anytime you feel something kind of stuck in the throat that feels like too much, come on, that's when you do this. Yeah. Well, that's when you would do this to kind of stop that from happening. But otherwise, you want to keep a neutral alignment through the neck and head, which is really hard to do, actually, because our habits are pretty strong.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

No, that's that's so true. I also really appreciate how for many responses here you talk about the physical, the gross level, and then the subtle level. Because I think that nuance, we don't call that out often enough. And sometimes we're not established in the gross and we attempt subtle body practices. So I I really appreciate you hitting those two each time because it's a very important, at least to me, it's a very important aspect. So that brings us to Mahabandha. Uh and Mahabandha is something I can very clearly say I have not been successful with. So I don't even know if if if I've understood the layers of Mahabandai, but what is the significance of this great lock?

SPEAKER_03 40:10

I I assume you're meaning by Mahabandha, the all three locks together. Yeah. Yeah. You know, yeah, to be honest, it's not one that I practice very much in its extreme physical form. On the subtle form, the subtle subtle layer, let's jump to that first because I'm familiar with that. It would be just what we've been talking about, where you are able to stabilize through all of the spots in the in the physical structure that tend to be wonky, that tend to be out of alignment, or you tend to lose subtle energy, but you also lose physical energy if your pelvis is your lower back is overarched all the time, or your pelvic floor is collapsed all the time, or you're talking and gossiping all the time, or your head is forwarding, your chin is up all the time. All of those are ways in which chronic leaks are happening without on kind of an autopilot level. So all three bandas are important here in turning in being able to collect and focus our energy, both physical and and subtle, and then also being able to redirect that into the things that are most important to us, whatever those might be. But certainly for meditation and the subtler practices of yoga, we need that that to be an option. So all three bandas then, by definition, and in sitting in meditation and for praniyama, you you know it's it's almost as if your mind turns on Mulla Bandha, not anything else. When the muscle tone is there, then that's what happens. And the lower belly is in the alignment intention is there, then Udiana Bandha and Jalandhar Bandha also just kind of in a very subtle way are there to create that connection, redirect and that circulation. So they would be all there in the physical form. When that's done as a practice, then I think it's more just we were talking about it's meant to revitalize, invigorate, open up the potential for doing these at the subtler level by creating the neural pathways, if you will, that allow that to be an option. Because otherwise it's not an option. And that's why if you're a beginning student, none of that subtle talk may make much sense, which is why I don't announce that we're doing the bundles, because there's either the clenching, as you mentioned, or there's the inability to actually get any purchase with it, which made people feel kind of almost not good about themselves. Yeah. So you like you say, you just instruct the awareness and the actions that help to make that awareness come into fruition. And the all three together, especially if they're done real intentionally without any application necessarily in an asana, but rather, you know, just as three bandas together, mahabandas of practice, I think it's it really creates that in that intense energy contained in the physical body in the torso. And that is, I think, healing energy and invigorating and so on. So that would be the intention is is just to really awaken the pranic force. And you know, part of what it goes on with Kundalini kind of yoga, the Hatta Yoga taken to the Banda extreme, is really trying to awaken these uh extraordinary energies that live and in the energy centers along the center channel. So even, you know, the for Hatta Yoga Kritipika's example says the forward band and Ardhamats Yendrasana, the spinal twists, all of those are meant to awaken Kundalini if you actually are doing them. And they're doing a bandas with them, believe me. I mean, that's what happens. So all three bandas really for uh Pashimatanasana, if you are easily applied, and it's meant to awaken this power that. Then is with you because it's an expansion of consciousness that happens, so that it's done by containing and directing and keeping in the torso itself instead of moving to the meditative mind. So just two different paths. However, if you can awaken it or at least partially begin to awaken in the and invigorate in the physical body, then the meditative path is much more available to you. So it's not that they're separate paths necessarily.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

They all go towards the same goal.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

So can you have, and I'm doing air quotes, successful yoga practice without ever doing the bandas?

SPEAKER_03 44:43

Oh, of course, I think so. You know, it depends your your your definition of what a successful yoga practice is depends on what you really wanted to accomplish. But you know, if you're if you're wanting the stress reduction and emotional regulation and tension-free stress body, lower back pain, you know, healthy, if that's your goal, I mean it would still be better if you if you were able to get to the bandas because it'll work better, but it is certainly it doesn't have to be.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Uh-huh. And if you're specifically moving towards meditation and dharana and dhyana, then bandas would be a part of that energetic work that we would do.

SPEAKER_03 45:25

Yes, if you have a good asana practice, if you're good hatha yogi, because you and I are, that's what we think. Yeah, that's the path we're most familiar with. But you know, I have met a lot of people who really don't do a whole lot of ahata yoga. They and they're just not particularly interested or good at it. And they're great meditators. I don't know how they do it, to tell you the truth, but clearly it's not a prerequisite for other paths of yoga. So for some people, they're doing some stretches here and there to make it comfortable to sit and breathe properly, and that is all they need. And they don't they don't really work at this deeper pranic level that we're talking about. I also think they're devotional, perhaps. Bhakti yoga, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

I also think if you're on the path of Hata Yoga, right? This is the pranic body and achieving that higher state of consciousness through the pranic body is such a big part of Hata Yoga. Exactly. That's the whole purpose. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you talk about this energetic claim, honestly, within the modern yoga world without either dismissing it and just putting the bandas aside? Or the other side of it, which I've seen very often, is overselling it, like overcome what the bandas do. So, how do we strike that balance? Any any advice to all of us?

SPEAKER_03 46:57

Well, I think you've already kind of said it, you know, when you talked about your teachers that really taught you how to do how to work with themselves internally, but didn't name things. Um and I've gotten away from naming things of all kinds for the reason that I think it for one thing, it triggers people to have a pretty narrow definition of what it is. And so it it may, you know, it doesn't necessarily it may stop them from experiencing uh something more. So true. Yeah, yeah. And it also because it's a foreign concept and it's a thought construct instead of a lived experience, it puts that it creates a chasm or gulf in there. So I don't usually think about it, I just try to help people have an internal experience. And whatever I'm saying is more about directing that. But it is true you have to create some kind of context for understanding that there's a subtle body to start with, which is also somewhat challenging for beginning people. So, but if you have a uh philosophical context, the a model of the mind and human being, and uh and an agenda or a understanding that the potential of the practice we're doing is to reach into those other layers of ourself that are more subtle and not physical and beyond our reach in our ordinary life. If we have that model and that understanding and the and then understand the potential of the practices, then we just continue practicing. And regardless of what the students' intentions or goals are, because they can all be served by doing the practice, regardless of whether their goal is, whatever the goal, maybe their goals totally in the worldly form, but healthy, wise mind discrimination and calmness and all the things that we know are true are really helpful in doing being successful in the world. So I think it it sort of unfolds itself, and there's really no need to hype anything other than we have potentials, and this is a way to unfold the totality of those potentials and not just part of them, which might be your intellect or your physical capacity. This is an integrating kind of thing. So I try to sell it, sell it in a sense of the overall power and benefit of doing the Hata Yoga practice without over-emphasizing technique of any kind, because a lot of people are. See a lot of people whose capacity for really advanced asanas is really just not there, let alone the desire to actually do that. So I think kind of stepping back and explaining value and potential in terms of what's really useful in people's lives is is probably the way to go instead of giving it labels that tend to create a whole culture around it.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

I could talk to you about your cuts for another hour. But I I really like how you said, you know, it's easy you've stepped away from labeling everything. And I always lean on, you know, describe it, describe it, show this, show everyone your clarity about it. And when you can do that, you and and take time. There's no rush to get udhyana bandha today, and slowly like sow the seeds down over time. And you said something else about which I thought was very potent. Is it useful in their lives? Like, see how much of this is actually useful for them. So I think that is is very potent. Sandy, thank you so much for being here for helping us understand the bandhas with a lot more clarity. Is there any final I'm saying advice to all the teachers listening out there when it comes to the bandhas?

SPEAKER_03 51:13

I think probably the best advice is keep practicing. And then, as we've really been emphasizing both of us, say what teach what you hope will help students to find the same experience and what for themselves. So you you and that might be a kind of a roundabout way in some sometimes or whatever, but teach satisfaction and experience rather than separated, isolated technique. Or if you are doing technique in that sense, it's it's really in service of giving people an experience of a certain kind. Different thing would be my thing. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Where can the listeners connect with you, Sandy?

SPEAKER_03 51:57

Well, we have a I'm with the Himalayan Institute, as you have probably seen, all of your listeners. And so I live there and teach there, and we have a really nice library online, Himalayan Institute.org. And the library itself has a number of practices about and talks about the Bundas, and then practices as well. Some of those are many of them are free to anyone who comes. They're in front of the paywall, as we say, and some of them are behind the paywall. I'm also doing a course in online in October. I think it's October, like the first weekend in October. And it's called Hata Yoga Sun, Moon, and Fire in Practice. And we will be working with the tantric aspects of Hata Yoga, which include the bandas, of course, October 2 through 4. So if you go to the website, you can sign up for that. Yeah, it's a picket. Wonderfully to see you there. I would want to see you there. Yeah, we'd like to see you at the institute. Just come and visit us. That would be great. I have all of you, but don't don't each on there.

SPEAKER_00 53:09

I I have to come that side. I haven't been that side in 18 years at this point. I would love to. Thank you so much. I will link to the course in the podcast show notes so everyone who's interested can also take up that one. Thank you so much, Sandy. This was wonderful. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 53:26

It was my pleasure. Thank you. And I do forward to seeing you in person someday.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. All the links are available at letstalk.yoga forward slash listen. If you would like to be in our Italy yoga retreat, please remember to click the link below. I will see you next week with another conversation. Until then, enjoy your practice. Take care. Bye bye.